From Fintech to Foundations: How Baya Build is Reinventing Affordable Housing at Scale

Quinton Comino: Hello, everybody. Today, my guest is James Casper with BioBuild. This is gonna be a fantastic interview. For a long time, the construction industry has needed to be disrupted. You could say that we’ve been building stick-frame construction—which is basically wood, hammer, nails—we’ve been doing that for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years. I think it’s been pretty simple. They haven’t developed very much. There are some innovations in the industry, but as a whole we have kind of built the same way.

Quinton Comino: What BioBuild has been working on for the past nearly eight years is a different way to build for affordable housing—attainable housing—on a mass scale. Every now and then you might get something affordable on a small scale, but to do that on a mass scale—and we’re talking like hundreds of homes, thousands of homes—that can be difficult. So I don’t want to spoil it for you, but it has to do with concrete and going through four different generations of trying to figure out which way is the best way to build affordable housing on a large scale. So tune in—let’s hear what James has to say. He just might have the ticket for solving the affordable-housing crisis in the United States.

James Casper: I’m a technology geek, so I love technology. And I love using technology for the betterment of the world, environment, myself. And so I’ve been in technology for nearly thirty years. I started in financial technology, and I ran five different fintech companies that were doing trading—so we were trading one ten-thousandth of a penny every day in billions of dollars worth of trading and super-precise—like beyond precise. We were trading at microseconds, which is near the nanosecond, which is nearly a millionth of a second.

James Casper: And when I came into construction—which has been my love—I grew up in the field, my father was a developer—I was trying to solve a problem, and that was to build communities for the 55-and-over using two inputs and trying to get five outputs. So the two inputs were technology and economy of scale, and the five outputs were physical, spiritual, and communal. Basically if you invest in getting those five you’re able to kind of live a longer, happier, healthier, more productive life—that was the goal I was trying to achieve.

James Casper: When I uncovered the complexities of construction I realized it was a very chaotic industry and environment, and it took me two years to kinda figure out how to approach it. And so since I was in—for twenty-plus years I was in the algorithmic-trading space where we were doing pattern recognition and mean reversion and stat arb and latency arb and all these quantum-physics—I tried to figure out is there a method or a bunch of disciplines that I could connect together that I can make construction and buildability more efficient. So that’s how BioBuild was born.

James Casper: Had he come up with it? The head of technology at Goldman Sachs came out with the name BioBuild. And “bio” is a self-weaving bird that makes its own nest in a very intricate way, and the male bird builds the nest and the female bird does the quality control. And so that was how this whole thing was created.

James Casper: We are now today on our fourth generation—which is concrete—which is what I was started about. It’s our own cementitious product that we’ve created. It was the last thing I wanted to do—I really did not wanna go into the concrete field—but one of our theses is that we have to build to solve affordable housing—so scale is a very sensitive issue for us.

James Casper: So how do you do that when it comes to engineered wood?—and it was really kind of impossible. So we tried everything—DLT, we tried SIPs—and we did great and we love SIPs and we love them all by the way—we love the rapid-framing system—we were building entire sections that were 40 or 60 foot long—we would be able to put them together in two-and-a-half to three minutes—and so we were really ahead of it—and then we realized that if we’re gonna do affordable housing for the masses and try to bring down the pricing how do we—we have to control some level of manufacturing—and then we came up with for many reasons our concrete mix.

James Casper: Unlike most concrete—concrete doesn’t have a good R-value so it has bad insulation in it—ours is ten times the R-value of conventional concrete—so we get to an R-30 in a six-inch wall panel—so that’s really high—we get to a PSI of 9,000 to 12,000—so that’s three to four times conventional strength and industrial strength—we bring down the price—we use only green materials—so this is all recycled materials or aggregate—and we’re able to build anything from tiny homes to buildings to a lot of townhome projects that we’re doing—we do a lot of things on the islands—but generally speaking we do larger projects—so I would say really anything right now is 100 units to a thousand to 3,000 units is kind of what we’re dealing with right now—that enables us to bring down the pricing and deliver the material.

James Casper: So this concrete is not only architectural—it’s structural and it’s insulative as well—so we actually form on the outside whatever design we want—so it could be lap siding, it could be stucco, it could be wood, it could be anything else that you wanted on the outside—that make sense?

Quinton Comino: Wow—you focus on multifamily—is that right?

James Casper: Yes.

Quinton Comino: You do single-family as well though?

James Casper: We do—so we’ll do 100 units or 200 units of single-family as opposed to one—we do infill and we’re doing actually infill in certain cities where the cities have committed to X amount of hundreds of units per year—and then we build a factory on-site in the area that services let’s say a twenty- to forty-minute transportation.

Quinton Comino: Yeah—okay—so there—so Damien—there’s a lot to go into there—first BioBuild—how long has this—when did you start this company?

James Casper: I started eight years ago.

Quinton Comino: Okay—so that’s a lot of growth in eight years.

James Casper: That’s four generations of technology—we’ve been focused mostly on technology but we’ve done yes.

Quinton Comino: So you find a location—say if you wanna do single-family you find a location you work with the city and then you build a factory so that you can do those shipments in the thirty-/sixty-minute radius—that is that correct?—now that building a factory is no small feat—that’s very expensive—how do you do that?

James Casper: I just came—I just finished doing a budget right now for a factory for a project of ours—so we have a project that we have to pump out 700 units in a year—and guess how much the pop-up factory cost budget was?—it’s been a million dollars—just under a million dollars—a million—and that’s with machinery that we take to the next project—meaning there’s no loss in that—we the factory with us—how do you do that?—we disconnect it—yes we disconnect it.

Quinton Comino: I mean it costs millions to start like a housing facility to put one of those up—you’re spending millions to do that—correct—so how are you doing this for so little?

James Casper: So we’ve procured every machine manufacturer in the world that builds molds and we teamed up with a factory that does our molds—so we’ve basically we don’t build our own molds—we have a factory that takes care of that—and then we build these steel structures that we away from welding so we can unscrew it and just goes on a few containers—and our goal is to be up and running within three months—that’s the goal.

Quinton Comino: Yeah—wow—within three months—so tell me a little bit about the actual physical production so I can visualize this a little bit more—so for those that are listening can visualize a little more because it’s SIPs we know that—it’s there’s not single-wides and double-wides—it’s concrete—so help us understand this precast construction how that factory works and it works on-site.

James Casper: Yeah—so let’s just first talk about our—it’s BioBuild—everything we build has to be hurricane-proof to Category 6—okay—220 mile-an-hour—everything has to be ready for seismic for California or Tokyo—and everything has to be net-zero ready which means that we have to have incredible R-values and a very very tight envelope—in most cases we’re aerating our homes because they’re so tight—and so with ventilation is a big issue for us and condensation—okay—and so with concrete it would be—our panels are per project and they could be as long as 60 feet long if needed—and sometimes they’re only 15 or 5 feet wide for example—we have our own footers—footers are precast—so we have our own foundation system that we built—our own flooring system that we built—we embed our MEP in it—so electrical and plumbing in the concrete—and everything is designed not to the need of welding if possible because that just speeds up our time—it doesn’t need another inspection—and so that’s important for us—on the inside we eliminate the need of—we can get to a Level 4 finish—so if you can see this house this is right—this is even smoother than sheetrock—and we embed electrical and plumbing—like I said we’re working on some very amazing HVAC system that we’re gonna be embedding as well but we’re not there yet—and then depending on what it is it could come in a long panel that is connected together—it could come in a volumetric like pod that are stacked on top of one another—it really does depend what it is—if it’s a lot of copy-and-paste it may be a pod—like we do we do workforce housing where the units are 206 square feet—and they’re very and they’re fully contained—so they have their own kitchenette and they have their own bathroom—and they get stacked one on top of each other and we can produce two a day—one machine?—yeah it’s a casting machine—so we have our own proprietary casting machine—and then we pour—we have our own batch plant mobile batch plant with our own cementitious proprietary mix—and then it pours in it—it cures it—has steam in it to warm it up and to speed up the curing system during time and then we stack it.

Quinton Comino: Now you have to have—you’ll have to have labor in that facility to do the MEPs—so how does that work?

James Casper: So we have labor but it reduces the amount of labor that we need—we have shop drawings for every project—so the team in ground and everything is videotaped and everything is checked—and every time we pour we make concrete we have to add a sample there and it has to go through testing to make sure that it reaches the PSI that we need and all that.

Quinton Comino: Wow—so then when the precast components are brought on-site how much work is needed aside from assembling and putting the pieces together?—you still I mean you have to do the rafters—you have to run some wires there and do the lights—correct—are the switches already in place?—is the wiring already there or it’s just conduit?—how does that work?

James Casper: Correct—correct—most cases our windows already installed before they show up—okay?—our conduit’s already embedded into the concrete panels—so we’re just fishing—it’s already there—you just have to wire put your wire in and connect—so it’s very very—I would say if you look at like a single-family structure we try to do foundation the footers in one day—all of the walls in one day—the entire roof in one day—so you’re day three until the roof—and then you do your roughing and slab-on-grade on your fourth day—and then you’re working on your finishing—you’re trying to get out of there within ten days of working—a four-bedroom large two-story house what I’m talking about—yeah with a two-car garage.

Quinton Comino: That’s incredible—that turnaround time’s amazing—can you talk a little on what that would look like if it were just traditional construction?—what that time frame would look like and you’re saving time with the way you’re doing it?—because not everyone listening fully understands how incredible that is.

James Casper: So generally traditional construction when they design the footers they’re going to have a carpenter okay who’s going to put in the footers and that would take anywhere between a day to three days—so I’m saving two days on that—and then they stick-frame which carpentry could take depending on how big of your crew that could be anywhere from a week to three weeks—it really does depend on what it is—and then on top of that you’re bringing in your roof and then you have to do the insulation—and you gotta do the wiring—and so just everything just you know you’re talking about potentially months—I mean months of savings.

Quinton Comino: Yeah—so then cost—what I’m interested in this then because you’ve really ironed out all these details it sounds—it sounds like you’re full steam ahead so to speak—what are the cost savings to this?—is it primarily going to be a time-saving?—what are the details there?

James Casper: Yeah—so it’s definitely a cost and a time—but I think we care about the quality than just the cost and the time because we didn’t wanna build something that wasn’t a super product—so it was really important for us to increase the quality—how do we decrease the cost?—and so we say that we’re approximately 50% faster than conventional construction—having said that sometimes we even as much as 85-90% faster—and so it really does depend—so that’s one thing—in terms of costs it’s hard to compare us apples-to-apples because they’re not the same quality product—even if we are apples-to-oranges we’re still about 35 to 40 cheaper than construction—and that’s especially in the very large projects—the larger the project the more we’re gonna be cost-effective.

Quinton Comino: So you don’t sell direct-to-consumer—you are partnering with builders—you’re working with municipalities—is that correct?

James Casper: Correct—so governments municipalities—those are kind of our tool.

Quinton Comino: And so why does someone—how do you make these connections?—why does someone choose you over just doing it traditionally?—is there an educational sort of hump that you have to get over to help people understand the benefit of going to BioBuild?—can you fill in the details there?

James Casper: I mean first of all no not everyone has the luxury of doing a really large project a 3,000-unit project right?—so we’re just we’re waiting on an RFP that’s coming out any minute or any day today on a 3,000-unit RFP that we’ve been working with a specific government—and they have a problem—they can’t build for that price—and so they were introduced to us—so we get we’re known more with large developers that are doing larger-scale projects that are problematic and that don’t pencil—I hear this word all day long don’t pencil don’t pencil don’t pencil—so if large enough we will pencil it.

Quinton Comino: Oh so that you have now these governments you have either approached them or they have you know the projects that they say hey everybody bid on this—just help those understand—because these are not something that your today builder is not doing projects epic—so you have to have—

James Casper: Something do a 100 units—I mean we also do a smaller project—if in a region or an area that we know we’re gonna do somewhere between 200 to 500 a year maybe we’ll invest in that region—and so we have a few cities—in fact the units behind me is going into a project in Cleveland where we’re doing the first 45 units but they need 5,000 units in the Greater Cleveland area over the next ten years—and so we have a great partner and that’s this is where this is going—so we’ll do also smaller projects but it has to have a reason for it—and we don’t reach out to governments—there’s usually a developer that’s working with the government and they have heard of us and they’ve come to us—interestingly enough I never really realized it—the construction industry is really small—like eventually people hear of you.

Quinton Comino: So you came from fintech right?—so how did you’ve had a passion with construction and that has to do from was you said with your father some of what he did?—is that right?—okay yeah and that’s great—you had a passion for it but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s gonna work out—like coming from financial technology and transitioning to construction that could be disastrous because it’s a pretty chaotic industry like you said—there’s so many moving parts and there can be just kinda disarray in a sense where there’s a lot of cohesiveness—and you could come in with not the right approach and it’s a different mindset different industry and totally fail—so how have you succeeded?—how have you come from what seems to be a completely unrelated industry and succeeded with BioBuild?

James Casper: So actually I think the fact that I came from such a foreign industry with such a mindset was a breath of fresh air—it meant that I said to myself I don’t wanna do what everyone else is doing—I don’t wanna continue refining a method that everyone else is refining—I wanna completely think outside of the box—I wanna come from a completely left field—don’t do what everyone else is doing—do something completely unique—and I think that was our approach—and we spent nearly eight years focusing on purely technology—it wasn’t about you know building the company and getting the biggest amount of contracts—it was just about how can we refine our skill to the point that we can really make a big difference—and it took us a long time and we feel very good about it but it took a while to get here.

Quinton Comino: Why did you take this approach?—why didn’t you take a different approach to building?—why that’s scalable?—why focusing on maybe ADUs or focusing on commercial?—why I just—

James Casper: I have a passion for affordable living—I’ve always had that—I recognize six seven years ago that we were gonna have a labor-shortage problem and that every time technology evolves the pool evolves too—so for example you know in the thirties when they came onto the scene suddenly people didn’t wanna you know plow their homes the same way—they wanted to use tractors—in the when the web when dot-net came in suddenly everyone wants to have an app right?—and suddenly everyone and then the trading world came in and everyone wants to write an algorithm—and so now you’ve got autonomous cars and people wanna live a different way too—they don’t necessarily wanna live in the same kind of styled house—so it’s also not but I think there’s gonna be a trend here as well—but in America there’s over 7,000,000 units of affordable housing—and that’s growing every year—and I felt like if we can have a really strong technology we gotta use it for good—so that was kind of the passion—it’s really kind of using it for affordable housing—having said that we are guilty of building million-dollar homes—and so I just wanna put that out there but that really you know it’s the same technology by the way.

Quinton Comino: What do you see the future for BioBuild?

James Casper: I still thought we will always be technology-focused—we there’s two or three pieces of technology that we really are working—I told you one of them HVAC specifically we dreamed to be to deliver radiant cooling for the world—so when you wanna get that done that will be a very huge feat because it’s the most efficient usage of energy in the world—and so we definitely what we’re still working on that—we are using graphene right now to generate energy and we would like to get our homes all 100% off-grid—so that’s you know technology-focused—there’s a few other things that we’re but this is always gonna be technology—it’s always gonna be affordability mass-production I guess home attainability really is kind of our passion.

Quinton Comino: So would you say the bulk of what you wanted to attain with BioBuild you’ve done you’ve arrived?—no for the no not it no no—okay—we’ve arrived to the point that we are doing scalable projects—we arrived to the point that we have a technology that we’re very very proud—and this is a game-changer for a specific segment—and we built a 2,311-foot home a prototype—and we were able to sell that at $319,000 to the consumer—and we’re able I want to bring that price down now—and for that that makes us really proud that we can sell mass-produce really high-end product—product that comes with certain components with up to fifty-year warranties—you know something that’s never been done in the industry—and so that’s really where we wanna focus and we wanna that’s absolutely—but we reach where we wanna go—we’re getting there—yes you’re reaching—so would you ever go direct-to-consumer?—I don’t think so—I don’t tell—one of and it’s not because I I mean I’m not the consumer—I am a consumer—but I feel our focus is about the production and the technology and partnerships—I think if you as well established in five years from now we would love to do that—it would be amazing—and if we had hubs around the country once also shipping becomes autonomous it’s gonna be a very big change—so we are already working and developing our technology for that day—and so when that happens things will change quite a bit for us—why why is that for the consumer—why is that significant for you?—it will bring down the pricing drastically—and you’ll be able to transport much faster and overnight and there’s no stopping—and it’ll big difference—yeah you just have a crew on-site to receive—correct yeah correct—that’s what do you have to ship these in right now?—do you have to have escorts?—can you do little hot-shots with them?—how does that work?—no escorts—we do standard shipping—so you’re pretty it’s an—no oversize—and even if we do oversize it’s by a foot so there’s no escorts—so that’s fantastic—we have a we’re working on a little of our own—just an idea really and we’ll see how it goes—but the it’s to it as a mod-pod and it’s kind of the heart of the home so to speak—has all the MEPs in it—it’s got the bathrooms in it—and then on the one wall you’ve got everything for the kitchen and then you can move around from there—is that an idea that you’ve it sounds like you have everything in the walls—you don’t have a central—mod-pod before a few years ago—and so we designed yeah I’m happy to share with you—we designed that you could build buildings of mod-pods multi-story—and you could build buildings in four or five different shapes—a straight a U-shaped an L-shaped—and so and then have these mod-pods for a one-bedroom two-bedroom and three-bedroom—so we designed those and yeah that’s a fantastic way of efficiency—the idea it’s way to build to bring down pricing—it’s not is that something that you found longevity with?—or did you find that with what you’re doing because you probably have like how do you get a consistent floor plan?—I’m sure that different governments want different things for their locations and that their lots are all this way or the developer the community wants to be a certain way—so do you have any consistency with that?—did you find any value in having a mod-pod to get consistent floor plans or do you have to engineer each floor plan for each lot or each development?—the problem that each lot is never the same and step-back rules and local rules are from region to region—I’m a huge fan of mod-pod if you’re doing multi-story multifamily—and multifamily mod-pod’s a great product—I’m happy to share with you and it’s been a few years I have to dig it up—but it’s a product and we do things slightly differently and we don’t necessarily because we do townhomes and we do different-style buildings—and this 260-square-foot unit is its own self-contained pod—and it just so it yeah there’s different ways of approaching—but for a single-family you found the way that you do it just makes more sense—the problem with single-family you can’t do a mod-pod to a single-family is the way we see it because of your lots and your setbacks—so I’ll give you an example—our goal thing we just brought up Cleveland was how do we build a product that will fit in 40-foot-wide insole location—I’m working at my home office today and so—so it’s a 40-foot with three-and-a-half on each side and we have to be there’s setbacks from the front and the back—and we wanna get rid of having a basement—so we have to replace basement storage upstairs above ground—and be within budget—so that was kind of a challenge—we were able to find 800 square feet of storage upstairs—wow yeah no wonder why they came to you and said look we can’t get this at the price it needs to be—yeah that’s amazing—that’s really and eight years is how long?—seven-and-a-half ago—there were not eight years and a half—coming up on eight—that’s really fantastic James—that’s so what was the—

James Casper: We slept in eight years so it’s not like it’s you know but that’s every good entrepreneur—this is my sixth startup and it was me—it was like you know just very passionate about it—and as you get better and you see the light you kind of it gives you just a little bit more energy more power and more strength to you know continue.

Quinton Comino: What was the turning that made you say I wanna I’m fintech I’m doing this—you know I loved fintech it was really an amazing twenty-five-year run or twenty you know just under twenty-five years—I was laid off to work in 22 countries and learn a lot of cultures—and I love cultures—I love people—and learning about history and food and you know religions and respect and family structures—and I love architecture—so going to all these countries and looking at buildings and whether they were old buildings or new buildings or new old areas—and so I really enjoyed it—but unfortunately the fintech where I was was not contributing to the world—it was yeah like you know if I had dropped dead at any point like nothing no one was gonna be like oh we contributed—what I’m doing here I feel is a life mission—so it’s just really you know it’s the whole it has purpose—and so I found purpose—yeah so coming to that realization coming to that moment of yeah I want I like to have more value—yeah that would be very motivating—that’s what will help you get through the sleepless times you know—as opposed to it’s fun and games—this is of all my startups this has been the hardest and the most rewarding but definitely you know a hundred times harder—and luckily I didn’t know how hard it was gonna be when I went into it—yeah that’s too I was gonna say like knowing what did not expect like what was different here almost eight years later—but the issue is like first of all the time people react to your innovation—so in technology you could build technology in fintech on a Friday and test it on a Monday and see results Monday afternoon right?—okay—in construction you develop something today—for the first two years everyone doesn’t understand what you’re talking about—like we people looked at me for the first three years of what we were doing and thinking like you’re insane—they’re like honestly people thought no—we don’t give no value—and maybe we were lucky enough that one of the top I think the largest construction company in the world is the ex-president of that came in to see us when we were doing our generation two—and he said to me James you’re onto something—and he came he flew in his private plane with his whole groupies of heads of construction and they spent a day with us—and then he said you’re onto something—and he says if you could crack this you will change the world—and that was but three four years of people looking at us funny and not you know?—yeah so that’s frustrating—and then even if you have technology by the way and you have the best the way industry is set up is that it’s a zero-sum game—it’s not a fair playing field—it’s they’re aligned playing field—so your lenders your architectural board of review your funders your manufacturers your suppliers the interest rate transportation—everyone has their own agenda—yeah yeah—so that’s a little of a you know just a different sandbox—yeah it is a little bit of a circus it seems like at times—yeah so we we well okay so when that when the you know the president came in of that construction company and he comes in and looks everything over did anything change at that point?—was there any involvement from them?—was it just a hey this is pretty interesting I think you’re onto something?—did that additional insight from that—what was there was it hey these guys are interested in what you’re doing?—there was they wanted to learn what we were doing—they wanted to see if they could incorporate—we were in our generation two which was a great product but not good enough for scale—so generation one was great a phenomenal product we built homes for that was still 220 mile-an-hour wind loads and had an R-34 insulation and an incredible budget—and those were great but not good enough for scale—so then we went to generation two where we did this rapid-framing system method where we built full-scale frames of generation one—much better but still not good for scale—when I say scale like try to do a hundred or a thousand homes right?—yeah—then we went into SIPs—love SIPs—we worked with a lot of different factories from you know all around the country—big fan—again it’s not good enough to scale—and so we said what are we gonna do?—and we’re not gonna be able to solve you know this construction conundrum if we can’t be able to pump out you know a thousand units per project or 2,000 or 10,000—so how do we do that?—and that was what pushed us into cement and some we it was two years to develop this—it’s been a while—so in a nutshell this is generation four right?—yeah—cement—in a nutshell how does that solve what these other things were not able to solve?—because first of all I’m not limited on production of cement—so I can produce more cement—I could produce enough cement to make a 100,000-unit project and it will take me three months to produce that—yeah—whereas if I was gonna produce SIPs it would take me three lifetimes—if I was gonna reduce you know generation one or generation two it would take me years to develop just to manufacture the product—I’m talking about two three months to manufacture that product for a 100,000 units—so the scale was and then the price—this is a quarter of SIP—yes yes SIPs are not cheap—you know?—yeah—this is a quarter of SIP—this is cheaper than stick-built—how?—how should it be cheaper than that?—because it has the insulation—it has the insulation built in—I’m getting rid of the siding—I’m getting rid of the waterproofing—I’m getting rid of inside—I’m reducing the plumbing insulation into this—so I’m much cheaper—wow that would be really fascinating—so to the consumer they’re inside the house—do they notice anything different visually?—no not at all—we have no limitation on the limitation whatsoever—yeah wow—because you think like architecture—your cost to do into stick-frame versus a concrete house you’re yeah it’s gonna be more expensive—but you’re taking all these other things out the siding drywall—correct—and don’t forget if 70 to 80% of the labor that translates the end price—alright so let me ask you this—sometimes I think of like when you’re trying to find a solution for something it might be obvious but not at that moment because there are a thousand solutions—okay?—and you happen to find it on number four right?—so there’s a thousand solutions and they’re all out in front of you and you’re thinking like oh is this one is that one and this one—and the only reason that the one that you landed on was not clear is because there were 999 other options—and then all of a sudden you come to realize oh this this is generation four cement—this is the one to go with—and so I’ve it’s all sense—oh now that now looking at it in the face like oh that solution makes sense—why didn’t I understand that before?—well maybe it was because I had all these other options and I just didn’t know—I had to sort through them—is that kind of a would you say that’s kind of a similar thing here?—we’re now explaining it—like this just makes sense—I would never have been able to get to this unless I went through generation one two and three—okay—those three generations created generation four or enabled us to create generation four—and we knew quite a long time ago how what the result would be but we said if we couldn’t get the concrete to act the way we needed to act we can’t fulfill this generation or this proof of concept—so that took us a while to do—and so yeah but it’s it wasn’t all we just fell on it—we it’s allowed to develop it—and by the way we’re still developing it—we’re doing lighting system into this that doubles as a conduit as well—and so we’re continuously refining you know how you have LED lights?—so we’re doing hidden LED lights that also act as a conduit as well—so we use one application for two—yeah really cool—so alright we’ll hear shortly—I don’t wanna take up any more of your time but I really appreciate it—were you for the cost to the research and development to go through generation one two three four and continued development—were you prepared for all of those costs that it would take?—it sounds like it took longer to arrive where you are now—no it didn’t it didn’t—I mean a lot of people said well why don’t you go commercial with generation one?—just take you did a great job—just make money out of it—and what or this or second generation or third generation—and we would just it wasn’t about the money—it really it wasn’t you know I had a few exits in the past and it was about how do we solve a real problem and that’s what it was about—and it still is—but we were definitely not prepared just so you know—and I’ve been prepared—we were warned—we may probably be scared to continue or to even approach it—yeah that’s amazing—how many you’re working in the US—you’ve got the in Cleveland—are you working throughout the entire US?—are you mostly the Midwest or the Eastern Seaboard?—so we’re mostly East Coast and the Midwest—we’re probably active in about a dozen or 15 states in that region—we have a few projects overseas—we’ve done approximately about 19 projects in total—some of them on YouTube so you can see you know different generation—we definitely had you know it was you know we learned a lot over the years—you know we documented everything—we really try to do what we call a post-mortem on everything and learn from it—and there yet no—I hear I’m a little bit more comfortable—every project I’m more comfortable—it’s we continue refining—yeah yeah yeah they’re big projects too—not you know just one two three homes—sounds like you’ll be doing you do homes for some of these projects—yeah yeah that’s amazing—and you have some stuff on YouTube you say?—yes if you go to BioBuild on YouTube there’s in North Carolina well there’s not there’s different North Carolina but there’s one in New Hampshire that’s like a million-dollar home—we built the frame in four days with a brand-new team—there’s one in Kentucky that we built in one day the frame which was a hybrid of SIPs and conventional trusses—I’m looking at some of the there may be some other stuff there too—fantastic—so you don’t have too much of an online presence—would that be right?—you know we don’t do so much outreach—we’ve really been word-of-mouth—we’ve been about focusing about our technology and luckily a lot of people hear about us—it’s relationships—it really is really what it’s about—and we weren’t rushing to do commercialization—we were rushing to develop and so the project that we’re doing in Cleveland is gonna get a lot of eyeballs—you reckon?—oh it’s gonna get eyeballs—I mean it’s hard to build a 2,300-square-foot home for the price that we’re doing and the quality we’re doing—so it’s gonna yeah—so if I wanna see if that stuff where should I go?—should I head to your YouTube?—should I head to Facebook?—to the website?—yeah you can you can—we can also share—you can email us and we can share with you—we’ve got a lot a lot of stuff—we did everything and I’m actually gonna be in Cleveland on Wednesday—yeah because we’re setting up a factory there and so we’re very excited about it—yeah you’ve got I’m on I’ve looked through on now the Facebook page and you’ve got some great stuff on here—you build you’re a builder—you got quality it looks like—but the thing is you’re not consumer-facing so much so those relationships are super-important that you have—and if you do what you’re doing in Cleveland every builder is gonna know about it—if you’re in the Cleveland area there’s a prototype house that we built—I would highly recommend to make an appointment and get in there—and if it doesn’t blow your mind I will be very surprised—I mean it’s affordable luxury with 25-foot ceilings—no way—yeah and a loft that has 15-foot ceilings with a window and a balcony all in affordable housing—that’s why don’t you do more like see because Boxabl has I’m sure you know of them right?—Boxabl has caused quite a stir with what they’re doing and I’ve got my opinions on them—and they have a very heavy online presence and it’s worked really really well for them regardless what you think about the actual product—why don’t you do more of that?—because if you had it sounds like an absolute home-run video content on that prototype home—why not more of that?—yes so we will we will I mean I think we will once where our factory is up and running we’ve got you know our first five or ten prototype homes in Cleveland which should be hopefully by the end of this year—we have we already have 600 mayors that are interested in learning more about it—so we’re we’ll get there we’ll get there—you wanna produce first—yeah we wanna produce—we wanna make sure that we have the right scale that we’ve worked out the kinks—remember we built a prototype home to verify that all our designs and our assumptions were correct—and we were about 97 98% correct—I mean we made a few minor changes now into the production—very minor—we moved the window a foot-and-a-half over—we made a few minor changes layout changes—but we were 97 98% there—but we wanted to be 100% there because when we start mass-producing we wanna have a that’s pretty yeah so that is talked about and designed—so it took us a long time to come to this—yeah amazing man—I’m really I’m excited—that sounds good—the construction industry needs disrupting—it needs something that’s different from what it has—it needs some absolute revolutionary technology and this fantastic—and it needs stuff that’s really practical tangible—and we’ve seen a lot of see you see builders come and go where they say they’ve got this new thing and then nothing really comes of it—but it I can tell from what your approach is is hey we wanna produce first before I start talking all this talk—I really wanna produce the product and then the product will speak for itself—we’ve done very little talk—and by the way just the stuff that’s on Facebook now and on LinkedIn we were forced to do this—so we would never even well it’s we you know reach nothing—it would generally help it but I haven’t even we haven’t updated all years—I see it yeah—and like literally years—and it’s just because we’re not our focus is on the technology—we’ve got some fantastic projects—we’re beyond excited and we’re gonna yeah—you’re well that’s fantastic James—we can wrap it man—I really appreciate your time and I know that you guys keep things under wraps—so I do appreciate you coming on and just sharing a little bit about what you’re doing—I’m excited to hear more—I don’t think the industry has been disrupted in the way that it needs to be yet even with all the builders out there saying that this and that and whatever—so I’m very interested to see someone come in and really change the way that construction has been done because traditional construction has been just that traditional construction for years and years and years—so changing that is gonna take a lot and that’s why it sounds like it’s taking you so long to get where you are—but once someone does it just like that president said like hey you cracked this—you’re onto something—you really are—so I’m very excited to see that—I’m gonna keep my eyes on your Facebook you know—appreciate it—whenever you whenever you’re forced to update it next I’m certainly gonna be watching it because I’d love to see what comes with this—appreciate it—absolutely.