From Solar Cities to Core Walls: Mike Rosen on Reinventing How We Build Homes

Speaker 0: Hi, everyone. In this episode, I'm sitting down with Mike Rosen. This is gonna be very interesting. He's an architect, but he's found himself in a ton of different industries. In his over forty plus year career, he's done everything from augmented reality back in the nineties, which was way before that was ever a thing, to having his own patents in the building industry.

Speaker 0: And, currently he's working on releasing some very cutting edge, you could say, products that would have the potential to innovate the building industry, like never before. So you're gonna learn a lot from this one. It's definitely going to be worth it. Tune in. This is a fantastic episode.

Speaker 1: Right. So well and, again, my career kinda spanned chunks of time. And and so in in the very early stages, when I first came out of architecture school and started my practice, I I was doing a lot of, residential, renovations, high end custom renovations for people on the main line of Philadelphia. So, you know, that's kind of how I cut my teeth for the first couple years. And then evolved into doing a lot of prototype designs for the large national builders.

Speaker 1: So, you know, the Pultes and the Rylands and the Vrelans of the world. I I designed their prototypes for years and years. And from there, I I grew and evolved into doing bigger and bigger projects. So from the single family prototypes, we evolved into, you know, town homes and then multifamily prototypes. And Mhmm.

Speaker 1: The pinnacle, of my career, I was doing high rises in China. So the the the path kinda grew where we started very modest and small just doing, you know, single family renovations and rehabs. But for the prototype builders and and just kind of dovetailing into what your company does, I've designed thousands of prototype single family homes.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So literally millions of people live in homes that were designed by my company all over the country. And and so, for a long period of time, we got into modular and did I have a lot of patents and prototype designs in modular home designs and things of that nature. So the firm kind of meandered all over the place, but the thing that took off the most is when I got into the advanced visualization stuff, the virtual reality and the metaverse and all that. Because once I got into that, I was one of the first architects in the world Mhmm. To get into virtual reality.

Speaker 1: And we're talking the eighties here. And and so actually backing up, before that, I did my thesis on solar energy in the seventies. Okay. Now my firm always had a deep technological and kind of on the forefront. Yeah.

Speaker 1: You know, in the seventies, this is going back to the Carter administration where you had all the oil embargo. There were gas lines. So everybody was all hot into solar energy. So that's when I did my thesis, in college on solar energy and and integrating that into architecture. So when I left, you know, my firm always kinda had that on the cutting edge, vibe to it.

Speaker 1: And that's how we used to get our projects. I would compete with other architects that would be doing the same old, same old. And here I was coming making them solar and off the grid. And when LEED came out, I was one of the first LEED architects. And so I was always on that cutting edge, and that and that was always my differentiator.

Speaker 0: So how did that get you all the way tell me you were doing high rises in China. That's like a far cry from, you know, modular homes here in The US, which is no small feat, as you're saying with millions of people living in the thousands that you've done. How did you get involved into those different things? And particularly, how did you get to doing high rises in China?

Speaker 1: In China. Restrictive. China was a result of the LEED movement. I was a pioneer in the sustainability and LEED. I was a beta tester for the LEED ND exam.

Speaker 1: And so if you're not LEED ND is, neighborhood development, so it's LEED macro. So it's looking at the macro issues of of LEED and sustainability. So I was one of the very first people to get into that area and was invited to, at the time, I was working for a very large, national architectural firm and were invited to enter a competition, an international competition in China for a design of a 40 story high rise, and we won. We won the competition.

Speaker 0: Wow.

Speaker 1: So, you know, I was invited to China several times to lecture and speak on the subject. Eventually, I was hired by the government of China to design a whole city, a low carbon industrial city. So

Speaker 0: Really?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Spent quite a while there.

Speaker 0: Wow. Well, how I can't imagine that was difficult with the language.

Speaker 1: Oh, it translators. I

Speaker 0: think Yeah. Yeah. That's Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's amazing.

Speaker 0: But I thought China didn't really care too much about carbon emissions.

Speaker 1: Well, we're talking, fifteen years ago. Okay? So fifteen years ago, again, this is the very, very beginning of the sustainability movement.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: The entire world and China were under a lot of pressure to kinda get lean and do all of that. So they they had a mandate at the time that they wanted to, get on on with that technology, and so that's why they invited us to to snuck our knowledge on on how to do all that stuff.

Speaker 0: And you did you actually end up designing a city that they built?

Speaker 1: I designed a prototype city, for 4,000,000 people. The way China is organized, most of the people in China live on the East And West Coast, and so they were trying to get people to move to the middle of the country. And there's there's the high speed train line, and what they did was they put points on the high speed train line and say, here, make us a city there. And so I designed a prototype city, and what they wanted it to be was carbon neutral so that all the energy and everything that was produced in the city equal the consumption. So it was totally carbon neutral.

Speaker 1: And so it was a very complex, sort of complicated concept that we came up with to make that happen. And and it was implemented.

Speaker 0: Wow. So then with the that's really amazing. I did you get to visit it after it was done?

Speaker 1: No. No. Actually, couple years after that started, the relationship with China started this hour and

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: It became more difficult.

Speaker 0: I'm not gonna go there. So that but you won the contract or you or the competition rather for that sky that that sky rise. Why? Was it because it was the best it was the most beautiful design? It was practical.

Speaker 0: It was affordable.

Speaker 1: Combination of a lot of things. I mean, it's hard to oversimplify, but generally speaking, it was green. It was sustainable. Mhmm. And so I made it completely carbon neutral.

Speaker 1: In other words, completely covered with solar collectors, capturing rainwater, introducing technology that they just didn't have in China. I mean, I made the whole I made the whole facade, you know, collects, you know, solar. And so we use the green wall on one end of it, and so we were introducing them the things they've never seen before. Oh, wow. And so that I think that's what caught their attention.

Speaker 0: So how do you how do you keep the balance of affordability, sustainability, and just overall design, something that looks pleasing to the eye? How do you keep that balance?

Speaker 1: Great question. It's actually, you know, full circle. You know, what I'm doing today is I'm very much in the affordable, modular prefabricated, business, and and it triggers on the affordability aspect that you're just mentioning. And so, one of my earlier patents back in the early two thousands, around 2005, I took out a patent called CoreWall. I don't know if you saw that on the website.

Speaker 0: But

Speaker 1: what that was, was a centralized wall that had all the utilities compacted into one wall

Speaker 0: k.

Speaker 1: Around which you build the unit. And it was a whole kind of way to produce modular and and prefabricated units that would make them very affordable. Fast forward to today, what we're doing is we're designing, it's actually a new concept, in production where it's an entire site that's first, it's gonna have factories. And the factories are gonna make building products that are actually gonna build the units. Right?

Speaker 0: Okay.

Speaker 1: But the first units that are gonna be built are the units for the employees that are gonna be working in the factories. So it's kind of this procedural thing where the first building to go in is a factory to make the materials, to make the rest of the buildings that are gonna build out ultimately an entire city. Yeah. Okay. The concept is basically taking the same idea that I used in China for making that, low carbon industrial city Mhmm.

Speaker 1: Where you start sort of in the middle and you kind of radiate out. But the people that are building the city are actually the first people that are living in the city. Right?

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Kind of a very cool concept. But the idea is the materials and the the the the process that we're making the components to build these units is the way I see the future of how affordable housing is gonna be done.

Speaker 0: Okay.

Speaker 1: Right right now, there's a ton of these modular, companies, right, that are putting out products like these capsules that you've seen. Yeah. You know, Elon Musk and Tesla has a whole bunch of them, and, you know, there's a whole bunch of Chinese company that are Yeah. And and they're very affordable now. Right?

Speaker 1: So you get this capsule that's essentially a unit. But people don't understand that when you're shipping those things, you're shipping air. Yeah. And and they're expensive, especially if it's coming overseas. Our whole concept is we just wanna make that one interior wall that's very, very

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Rest of it is gonna be these very affordable magnesium panels that are gonna be prefabricated, like, almost SIPs panels. Mhmm. They get erected very quickly on-site. So it's panelized construction. It's not modular.

Speaker 1: The most expensive component, which is the core wall between the kitchen and the bathroom that contains all the mechanical, all the plumbing, all the electrical, all the computer, essentially, the engine of the house Mhmm. That's mass produced in a factory.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Okay. So that's how you in my opinion, that's how you make things affordable. You take the things that are very expensive, mass produce those

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And the things that are easy to build like the skin So tell

Speaker 0: this is really interesting because we're working on a similar sort of concept, but but a little different. Tell me a little bit more about the core wall and how well, I'll just tell you. So what what we're working on is something that we call the mod pod, and that is a pod, 10 by 20 in engineering. Pod. Yep.

Speaker 0: Yes. And you have But a

Speaker 1: 100 times. Yeah.

Speaker 0: The wall of it is, you know, the the one wall has everything where the kitchen will then be connected on-site. Why why that? Why the core wall?

Speaker 1: Think about it again. What was the dimension that you said? 10 by 20.

Speaker 0: Yeah. How

Speaker 1: many of them can you fit on the truck? Oh,

Speaker 0: A couple.

Speaker 1: Okay. So how many units are you shipping out every time you ship one of those out?

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. One, two.

Speaker 1: Okay. So with mine, I can ship 14 units on the same truck because I'm just delivering that wall that's between the kitchen and the bathroom.

Speaker 0: Okay. Tell me more.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you see what I'm saying though?

Speaker 0: Yeah. But how do you

Speaker 1: I'm just shipping a wall. I'm just shipping a thick wall that inside that wall think of it as like I'm making a car, and inside that wall is the engine of the car. Mhmm. So the mechanical, the HVAC, the electrical, the battery, the computer, everything is in that engine is in that wall. How do

Speaker 0: you how do you fit it all in there?

Speaker 1: That's that's the my That's the secret,

Speaker 0: Now that's something. Why why yeah. It's I'd have to see more of that. I'd I'd be very interested in that.

Speaker 1: Hold on. Let's see what I can show you here.

Speaker 0: Yeah. You might be able to share your screen.

Speaker 1: Okay. Let's see.

Speaker 0: Because what we have we thought about those sorts of things, but you only have so much, you know, you can only put in so much before you just need to make more space.

Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. There we go.

Speaker 0: Okay. Great. The core wall. Alright.

Speaker 1: So this is the concept. Right?

Speaker 0: K.

Speaker 1: You know, so, basically, you see this wall in the middle here?

Speaker 0: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: That's the core wall. And so along that wall, I've got the kitchen on one side. I've got bathrooms and laundry and everything else on the other side. So all the mechanicals can basically fit in this one wall. You see that?

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: That that's essentially the idea.

Speaker 0: I see. Have you built with this?

Speaker 1: Many. Yeah. We've built many homes that have done this. I've done single families, townhouses, apartments.

Speaker 0: And, is the value recognized by the builders?

Speaker 1: Well, again, I it was. This this is ancient history. Right? So I this was in 2005. Mhmm.

Speaker 1: And so there were several communities, and there are many articles written about it, and it was shown at the International Builder Show at the parking lot and all of that kind of stuff. So it had its fifteen minutes of fame. What happened was, you know, we had several recessions and, you know, production lines wouldn't make it, and and so it just I couldn't find any modular builder at the time. This is after the February. Mhmm.

Speaker 1: I couldn't find any module builder that was willing to dedicate an assembly line to it.

Speaker 0: Wow. Really?

Speaker 1: So that was the problem. We had orders. We had lots of interest, again, back then.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So now we're bringing it back. I mean, so that's what's happening today. We're I've got somebody that, is in the process of building a factory, to start making them again.

Speaker 0: Really? Now, it is interesting to me. You have all these different unique building ways of building, whether it's panelized construction like SIPs or, I don't know, ICF or all these different types of building, and they claim to be faster and, more affordable and all that stuff. But we still have the majority of residential construction is just stick. It's just a construction.

Speaker 1: That's not where it's going. Where the where where it's going is gonna be, cold form steel. You're gonna see most of the panelizers are already shifting from wood to coal form steel. If you notice, most of the new ones that are now out hitting the market

Speaker 0: are

Speaker 1: all metal studs. The other thing that's shifting is you're gonna you're gonna start losing the plywood and OSB on the outside. Mhmm. That's shifting to the cementatious stuff. Oh, magnesium oxide panels or, fiber cement or things like that.

Speaker 1: So you're gonna lose everything that has wood because of fire and moisture.

Speaker 0: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: Okay? So wood is, like, on a decline. It's gonna take time. It's not gonna disappear overnight, but I think what you're gonna see is more and more of the prefab modular and component housing is gonna be metal studs and noncombustible materials.

Speaker 0: I would tend to agree with that, but why don't we see the big builders converting over to these

Speaker 1: They are. Most of the big national large scale builders are are migrating to these materials.

Speaker 0: What what in particular are you seeing?

Speaker 1: The big nationals?

Speaker 0: Yeah. Not who, but, like, what are you seeing they're doing? Because I'd still see them building just the same way, just two by three.

Speaker 1: Again, I'm talking about now the the the modular and the panelized, not the stick built. Not the conventional guys. Right? The conventional guys are still doing wood framing

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Because that's the majority of the crews out there, and that's what's available. But the industry where where you're seeing the shift in the industry is in the prefabricated modular and component side. Yeah.

Speaker 0: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: The factories are not pulling wood into the factory.

Speaker 0: I see.

Speaker 1: They're pulling in roll, coal forms steel.

Speaker 0: Steel. Yeah. Okay. Actually, I just literally I just did another one today, with this gentleman, and that's what they do is commercial and residential construction. And one of the big ups, so to speak, benefits that they have is they make their own steel.

Speaker 1: Yes. Because we will do too. We're gonna have machines that are gonna make the studs, that are gonna make the trusses, the whole thing. Yeah.

Speaker 0: So will the the cost come out to be the same more or less?

Speaker 1: It depends what you're comparing it to. Right? So everything is relative. So if you're looking, for example, in warehousing, right, you're comparing it to tilt up concrete. Right?

Speaker 1: And so it's about a quarter of the cost of tilt up concrete. If you're looking at residential in the multifamily or even single family, you're comparing it to wood frame or or or the SIPs panels or those kinds of things. It's gonna be pretty neutral. It's gonna be the same, if not less.

Speaker 0: So why as this is where I don't understand. If it if it's if you're gonna have a better product and it's gonna be the same, if not less, why aren't people flocking toward these and not just steel, but all these other mentioned

Speaker 1: Again, you you have to remember, the building industry Mhmm. It's a very slow industry to adapt to new technologies. It evolves very slowly. My biggest problem in trying to convince a client to try a new material or a new system like this Mhmm. Is, okay.

Speaker 1: Show me 20 others of my competitors that are doing it, and they've been successful. And I go, well, they haven't because it's new. And they go, well, I'm not gonna be the first one. I mean

Speaker 0: Yeah. So you're just gonna do it yourself.

Speaker 1: Well, the the idea is it it's when it's proven and they see success, then they all kinda jump in. And so from my perspective, again, I I believe that everything is gonna be built in factories. I I don't think you're gonna be building stick built in the if you if you understand that, if you go under with that as an

Speaker 0: assumption approach. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Then you know that wood is is it can't it's not gonna make it into the factories.

Speaker 0: No. No. So yeah. I I think that I I would tend to agree with that as well. Yeah, I I would say that that things are shifting in the most innovative ones are probably gonna be, yeah, the factories first.

Speaker 1: Well, look at how look at Tesla.

Speaker 0: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: Right? Their their their approach to making the their modular housing, right, under tiny homes, under capsules is the same way they make cars and airplanes and rockets. It's the same approach. It's the same, you know, the skin is the same skin. They use the same materials.

Speaker 1: So they're not they're not looking at it like we do from the antiquated construction industry, which is, oh, you have to start with a stud or a brick, and you work your way from there.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: They're working from the inside out. Right? They're starting with the engineering and the aerodynamics Mhmm. Of the price, and then they figure out the cheapest way to build

Speaker 0: it. That's pretty amazing. Yeah. They've done a number of really amazing things like Tesla. They're limited offering.

Speaker 0: You would never think about having a a a new car manufacturer having a very limited offering, like, three, four models or what have you, and they primarily just sell to the model y and the model three. That's just crazy, but that's somewhat somewhat of a tangent. But, yeah, they they've done some amazing things. So,

Speaker 1: But but but, again, it's a mindset approach towards design and production that I think the housing industry is gonna they're leading it. They're they're pulling the housing industry in in that direction. Right? So if they're gonna have a smart house, right, that's super smart that talks to your car and your phone and your watch and your chip in your head and everything. Right?

Speaker 1: How do you compete with that?

Speaker 0: So let me ask you. Have you heard of the company, I imagine, is much Boxabl?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Of course.

Speaker 0: So, what are your thoughts on them?

Speaker 1: It's a slippery slope. There's two sides to it. There's the product and there is the corporate management and how they Yeah. That that aspect to it. Right?

Speaker 1: And so the product is great. I love the product, and and Elon had a lot to do with it. But it it it it showed promise, and and it's very clever. I still believe that my concept is better Yeah. That I'm not forcing you to buy everything else.

Speaker 1: It's still just that one wall, but I'm delivering the same thing that they're delivering. Right? So, essentially, what they're delivering to you is technology that you don't have. And they're saying if you buy our thing, we're gonna put shit in or things in there

Speaker 0: Yep.

Speaker 1: That you wouldn't put in there because you don't have access to them. Mhmm. Right? But the rest of it, you know, the windows and the carpet and the toilets and the cabin, that stuff you can get anywhere. You don't really need them for that.

Speaker 1: You you see what I'm saying? Yeah. So that's how, you know, what that's where I kind of deviate from Boxabl and Tesla in that in thinking, you know, they're giving you they're they're giving you the whole thing. They're saying, here's the whole car, and I'm saying, I'll I'll just sell you the engine. Build your own car.

Speaker 0: Yeah. That's really fascinating. I have to think about that some more. That's because that seems to make what's frustrating for me is and you said slippery slope. Like, I'm not super thrilled with Boxabl because they haven't really delivered on a lot of what they have

Speaker 1: That's the corporate side. That's why I said to you, there's two sides.

Speaker 0: Like, the idea is not bad. I'm I'm all for it. But actually delivering on the product and what have you. And then the amount of hype that they've generated is it they're almost more of a marketing company than a manufacturer.

Speaker 1: Many people have called it a Ponzi scheme. That's why I said to you, there's the product and there's the corporate aspect to it, which is, you know, I I really don't wanna comment on because I don't know.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: For sure. On the inside of it, but, certainly, I hear, you know, everything that's being said about them in terms of it it it it the build up, right, and the and the whole approach to funding something as Yes. As early on as this is Yeah. And unproven to be looked at with a high degree of skepticism.

Speaker 0: Exactly. Yeah. Yes. Cautiously. But then you have what you're talking about, the core wall, which if you're a a a a builder, an architect, an engineer, what have you, and the and this concept is presented to you, you just get it.

Speaker 0: You're like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. But, yeah, definitely, we should do something like that. But it doesn't get nearly the the hype, so to speak. So I would I would love to see something Well, it hasn't

Speaker 1: been marketed in in almost

Speaker 0: twenty years.

Speaker 1: I mean, so the the idea by the way, when we did it, it launched it at the two thousand and five International Builder Show on the parking lot. It was a huge hit. We had, like, $60,000,000 worth of orders. Wow. No way.

Speaker 1: People yeah. People

Speaker 0: thousand 5.

Speaker 1: Yeah. People loved it. I mean, it was very easy to understand. You got it. Mhmm.

Speaker 1: Back then, it was made with SIPs panels, which were all the rage. Yeah. You know, so so it made sense. The the the the the problem is the the the building industry goes through cycles. Times are great and everybody's super busy.

Speaker 1: They're not interested in talking to you about anything because they're just, you know, they're they're doing

Speaker 0: the same amount.

Speaker 1: Deal. Right? When the market's depressed and things are tight, they don't have any money to invest in r and d. And so when you introduce a brand new product that's never been done

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And now they've gotta dedicate a production line to us in an estimate, you know how long how much does it cost to set up a production line?

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right? So who's gonna make that investment when it's a downturn?

Speaker 0: That makes sense. So you you on both sides, you're like, yeah.

Speaker 1: That's the problem with these that's the problem with doing new, you know, paradigm shifting technologies in any industry.

Speaker 0: Because you cannot test you can't test it out like you can with technology. You can test new ideas. You can come up with an idea on a Friday and test it on Monday.

Speaker 1: Well, we built them. We actually built we had several builders who bought into it and actually built them. You know? So it wasn't for a lot. It's just that when things picked up again

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: There was no need. There was no you know, the it just went back to doing the things the way they always did.

Speaker 0: So what's gonna be different this time?

Speaker 1: The this what I'm saying to you now is that the industry has evolved because of what Elon Musk is doing with Tesla and Boxabl on these things where everything has been I thought whole industry is gonna migrate to factory built production component housing.

Speaker 0: Okay.

Speaker 1: So now I think the market is gonna be way more receptive to this type of a shift because it's not as radical anymore.

Speaker 0: No. Yeah. It's true. It was very radical back in 2005.

Speaker 1: Correct. It back then, it was like, what I mean, there were no metal studs. There was you know, people weren't it was ahead of its time.

Speaker 0: Wow. It's really interesting. When, I'd love to hear more about this and, like, the how it progresses. Do you have a time frame on on We're in

Speaker 1: your early stages. I mean, we're we're literally building the factory. So it's it's gonna take take a

Speaker 0: bit a

Speaker 1: good year or so just to get up and running, but it's it's it works.

Speaker 0: Would you what's is your focus now?

Speaker 1: No. No. I mean, my my I'm a architect. Right? So I Yes.

Speaker 1: Well, I do consulting. I I do lots of architects. Developers hire me. Most of my time is spent doing highest and best use studies for people. Mhmm.

Speaker 0: You know?

Speaker 1: So if you own a piece of property, 100 acres, because you don't know what to do with it, you know, you call me and I come up with a master plan for it and help you do that. That's

Speaker 0: Alright. So that's what the primary focus

Speaker 1: And I take it through the entitlement process. You know? So, again, over my course of my career, you know, I did many things. At one point, I ran a big office, little office, whatever. Now I'm I'm solo.

Speaker 1: So I just basically try to Mhmm. Use my time where my billable rate is at the highest. Yeah. And that's doing public meetings and doing upfront, you know, conceptual designs for clients and things like that.

Speaker 0: I noticed that you have a number of meetings, with boards that you sit down with, with a town or a city or what have you presenting

Speaker 1: That's really my sweet spot. Yeah. Because of my background with sustainability and the lead ND and, you know, when I come into a township, the approach is, you know, I I will make this project be the best building for your town for all these reasons. Yeah. And so that's always been a a, you know, a passion of mine and and kind of also when I make the most

Speaker 0: money. Yeah. No. It works well. Do you think, do you think differences in zoning and building codes would alleviate some of the, stability?

Speaker 1: Number one. That's the it's the biggest issue. Right now, I mean, depending on which state you're, like, practicing in with California versus no. It could be up to 40% of the cost is is in fees and all kinds of permits and nonsense that have no direct impact on the actual cost of the house. So, yes, zoning is the I'd say is the number one barrier to affordability.

Speaker 1: And I talk about that all the time. I mean, this is Yeah. I would say if I was talking to the president of The United States and I said, if you need to fix the problem, what

Speaker 0: would

Speaker 1: you do is change zoning laws.

Speaker 0: Yeah. See, the the thing is you have a bunch of little municipalities that maybe have elected officials, maybe different positions are not elected, and it's certainly not as in the forefront as your your general election or even primaries or what have you. But then but these have great power with zoning and what's approved, what approved, and what aren't. And that's just I don't know how that could possibly be changed or how there could be a, you know, someone could get a handle on that because when when when power like that, I really feel like they in a lot of cases We

Speaker 1: we tried. I I I said, I I I was chairman of the American Institute of Architects Housing Committee. I also, was on the design committee of National Association of Home Builders. And constantly these issues would come up where we're grappling with how do you get government to understand the impact of the effect of these zoning laws on the cost. Yeah.

Speaker 1: And so we're it's it's making them understand. But at the end of the day, because every municipality is a it's a little fiefdom, It's political, and it's it's usually, you know, it's not in my backyard.

Speaker 0: Mhmm. You

Speaker 1: know, it it's has to do with national politics. It has to do with the little, you know, Google politics. You know? Because and it's funny. I you know?

Speaker 1: I've designed all over the world. Right? And so when you talk about density, in some places, you go and they go, oh, four units to the acre. That's too much density. And then you go someplace else, and it's eight units to the acre.

Speaker 1: Oh, that's too much. Some places, it's 12. Some places, it's 20. If you go to China, it's 5,000 units per acre. Right?

Speaker 1: So the question is, it's it's it's psychological. It's not green. Right? So that's that's zoning. Right?

Speaker 1: Zoning is a is a is what is permissible based on the, you know, socioeconomic, what's happening in that area at that moment.

Speaker 0: So what would you say is the best approach towards zoning? Right now, you have, in a lot of cases well, like, so where where I I'm at here in Florida, the zoning is you can build these types of homes on this zoning regulation. You can build these types of businesses here, and then these other businesses you

Speaker 1: can share. My specialty is zoning modification and zoning changes.

Speaker 0: Okay.

Speaker 1: So the the idea is depending on what you wanna do and what makes financial sense, obviously, it but but the idea is to go into the town and to the community and and you wanna with them to achieve a mutual goal. Right? So they have needs

Speaker 0: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: And you have a desire. And so you need to make their you need to fulfill their needs while fulfilling your desire. And it's a balancing act. Right? And so if so that's where I start.

Speaker 1: I start with finding out what what do they want? How can my project help them

Speaker 0: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: Accomplish things that they wanna accomplish in this area? So that after I leave, their community is better.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And if I can verbalize that, if I can demonstrate that to them and show them, look what I'm gonna do. In addition to my building, I'm gonna do this and this and this and this, and that's gonna make your community better. That's I that's the bullet in my in my forty years.

Speaker 0: Yeah. How do you how does that go? How does that typically go?

Speaker 1: I've been very successful. I mean, you know, I've done literally hundreds of these rezoning projects all over the country.

Speaker 0: Really? Yeah. And you're rezoning one particular property or a section? Or

Speaker 1: It's very I've done from, you know, small one, two acre lots to thousands of acres. My my the I guess my most famous project is a project I did right outside of Washington, DC called Melford Village.

Speaker 0: Yep.

Speaker 1: It's a lead ND community.

Speaker 0: It

Speaker 1: it was we got it zoned for about 2,500 units, of residential. But it was an industrial. It used to be industrial. It was an office park that, you know, over the years didn't do well, and so they stopped developing it as a an industrial office park. And we rezoned it for residential.

Speaker 0: Wow. So you had to convince everyone.

Speaker 1: It was in law suits for years and years and years. It actually went I believe it went to the it went through the courts, and it got denied. And, you know, they wanted 800 units, and they wouldn't let them do it. And then when we came in, we redesigned it as a lead n d project, made it super green.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Made it you know, it won awards, and we got a zone for 2,500 units.

Speaker 0: Yeah. That's amazing.

Speaker 1: That's an example of what, you know, like, the zoning makes the the biggest difference. You know, look at a price per unit if you've got 800 units versus 2,500 units. Right?

Speaker 0: Yeah. Man, that's like you almost man, it's for the thing is changing zoning laws doesn't make anybody well

Speaker 1: Well, it's changing laws. Any municipalities has the authority to modify their laws.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: So it's working with them locally, you know, to either do an overlay district or get zoning variances or you can look. If they like what you're doing, they're gonna let you do it.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: If they don't like what you're doing, they're gonna fight you tooth and nail. And so if you're coming there as the greedy developer to just try to, you know, optimize and make the most amount of money and they know it, they're gonna resist. If you approach it from the perspective of what I'm saying, a holistic approach, the m and b, right, which is how can we make this whole thing better, And you're working with their town planner, and that's usually who I start with. I I meet with town planner, and I go, okay. What what do you need?

Speaker 1: How can we make your town better? And they always have a list of things.

Speaker 0: Yeah. They want stuff. That isn't that interesting? They have things that they want to have done to the town. Yeah.

Speaker 0: It's just maybe not the what the

Speaker 1: Well, they they they have the wrong way. They go, okay. Well, look. You have another two units if you build us a traffic light or, you know, they always bargain like that. Right?

Speaker 1: Rather from the perspective of, you know, how can I get what I want from the beginning and give you what you need, and let's work together to do it?

Speaker 0: That's really good. So you you say that their their approach is is off. You

Speaker 1: come to the different approach. From my experience, it's it's combative. Yeah. It's it's sort of zero, you know, some game.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Not it's not a win win approach.

Speaker 0: No. Doesn't sound like it.

Speaker 1: But there are these townships that because and it could toot my own horn, but they bring me in for this purpose.

Speaker 0: Yeah. No. No. No.

Speaker 1: They bring me in because that's my track record is for working with these municipalities to do good things for their communities.

Speaker 0: No. I can tell. You you've gotta be worth every penny. And and and immense is where the biggest value is because you you've gotta you gotta know what you're talking about, know how to handle people, multiple people if you're standing in front of a board, how to present something in a way that is

Speaker 1: simple And you're not doing it in China. Yeah. That's tough. You're not doing it in Vietnam. I mean, in places where you're, like, a total foreigner and a stranger.

Speaker 0: Yeah. That would be no. But they might have different zoning or, like, you know, building They

Speaker 1: have crazy zoning. Crazy.

Speaker 0: For bad.

Speaker 1: Just crazy. I mean, it's just different. I mean, in China, you know, thing, very concerned about, for example, light quality. You know, you have to do complete light calculations on the high rises from all directions to make sure that you're not casting shadows on anybody or, you know, all kinds of that's, you know

Speaker 0: That's what they do. Yeah. Interesting. Now the

Speaker 1: Every place has their own crazy I mean, even here in The United States.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Municipalities has little, you know Quirks. Yeah.

Speaker 0: Well, that's amazing. I don't I don't wanna go too much of your time, Mike. I I I am interested a little bit. You have mentioned on your website and you mentioned earlier about just, like, AI reality, augmented reality, virtual reality. I just wanna touch on that a little bit here, toward the end.

Speaker 0: Can you just talk what exactly

Speaker 1: how you first venture into virtual reality was, like, twenty five years ago. Dave and Buster's in Philadelphia. Right?

Speaker 0: K.

Speaker 1: And so, I designed the first virtual reality exhibit at the Franklin Institute

Speaker 0: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: Philadelphia Science Museum to kinda showcase the technology. I was an early pioneer and evangelist of the technology because, the goal was to kinda show architects back then how the technology could be used for architectural visualization, which nobody was doing back then. Yeah. And so that's how I got into it. And then, we we, got in from a, Swedish company called Persalvia to create a virtual reality model of the city of Philadelphia.

Speaker 1: And we that was a commission with the Philadelphia Water Company and actually made the cover of Computer Graphics World, that project. It was

Speaker 0: What?

Speaker 1: I wanna say, like, 1995. We were doing virtual reality walk fly throughs through an entire city back then. The computer that we were using was a silicone graphic million dollar computer. The technology all came from the Swedish military. And so what we did was we formed a a thing called the Philadelphia Virtual Reality Center.

Speaker 0: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: And that company basically did visualization for other architects and builders and developers around the country. So very early on, the original CD ROM fly throughs they use

Speaker 0: is

Speaker 1: Our company used to do that way, way back then. So we were very, very early on into that. And then that spun off to a company called the, CubicEye or the Cubiverse. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Which is a patent that I did back then for, which had to do with the fourth dimension on the Internet and navigating three d on the Internet and all. That's when the Internet so virtual reality migrated to the Internet.

Speaker 0: Yeah. I see.

Speaker 1: And and when we migrated to the Internet, that's when I got into the metaverse and all these three-dimensional websites and and and the universe and all of that. That actually got spun off and got funding to to become up the company.

Speaker 0: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: And we launched that. I ran that as a CEO and chairman of that company for several years. Mhmm. And then the Internet bubble happened. And

Speaker 0: it just happened.

Speaker 1: Right? And so that was another cycle of that. So that was virtual reality and And so lately, just recently, when the COVID hit Yeah. Yeah. I relaunched the cube.

Speaker 1: I relaunched it as a virtual environment for collaboration. So for example, this meeting that we are having right now, we can do inside a cube. Mhmm. And do all kinds of crazy stuff. So that that's kind of why I migrated to that space.

Speaker 0: Yeah. And that's a little bit that's like the metaverse with, you know, what what Meta is doing, Mark Zuckerberg. Is that similar?

Speaker 1: Well, it's not similar. It's exactly the what what what I own, I the the company that that patents that I have is essentially think of it as a portal Mhmm. Through the metaverse. So once you go into the cube environment, from there, you can go to any of of the meta or any of the other metaverses that Zuckerberg or anybody else does. You can go to it from my cube.

Speaker 1: Or, conversely, there's all these, urban models like, Cyber City three d. I don't know if you're familiar with them where, you know, you fly around Google Earth or whatever, you can click on a building. Well, when you click on that building, you can now open a cube. And from that cube, have all this information and all that. So that's where that technology is headed.

Speaker 0: Yeah. That's and then the you are more focused on that since COVID or no?

Speaker 1: No. No. That's that's actually when you say what's my passion right now right now, money for that effort.

Speaker 0: Ah, it's a lot to keep up with.

Speaker 1: It's a serial entrepreneur. I love it.

Speaker 0: That's awesome, man. That's so cool. Well, I appreciate it, Mike. I I've just absolutely love I told you, like, at the beginning of, this this podcast, it's always seemed to be the most interesting. And so certainly, you've lived up to that.

Speaker 0: I appreciate you taking time today. I'm I'm excited to take this one out for everyone to see. This is just really fantastic, And I'm really excited, to to hear more about CoreWall. I'm I'm gonna be putting I know you said you you're just very early stages. In the next

Speaker 1: few months, there'll be more and more stuff coming out.

Speaker 0: No problem, man. I, I will be in touch about that sort of stuff because that sounds like a product that actually has traction. It's not just hype. It's not just whatever. It's got the right leadership and the right product.

Speaker 0: And I would love to to see something that's successful.

Speaker 1: By the way, that's a licensing model. So even for a company like yours, if you wanna incorporate that into your product Yeah. You can literally get a license to do that.

Speaker 0: Yeah. There's potentially some viability there. Right. For sure. Well, thank you, Mike.

Speaker 1: Alright. My pleasure.

Speaker 0: Appreciate your time today.

Speaker 1: Great talking to you.

Speaker 0: Yeah. We'll see you.

Speaker 1: Alright. Take care.